Older D&D Books on DMs Guild Now Have A Disclaimer

Azhrei_Vep

Well yeah. But doing anything meaningful would require work. And possibly money. So they ain't gonna bother with that.

Kainguru

Azhrei_Vep Exactly.

I'm just gonna have to vote with my wallet, again

Azhrei_Vep

Sadly, I cannot join you. I was already not going to buy any of WotC's stuff due to complete lack of interest. My abstention is meaningless!

So, go find someone else who might have bought some of their products and convince them to stop in my name, will you?

ProbieTim

Azhrei_Vep bought some of their products

"Bought"? What is this odd practice of which you speak? 😃

(Totally not advocating piracy. There's enough free D&D stuff via SRDs and basic rules and free downloads on the WotC site that I don't think you actually have to buy ANYTHING to play D&D.)

Provinto

ProbieTim There's enough free D&D stuff via SRDs and basic rules and free downloads on the WotC site that I don't think you actually have to buy ANYTHING to play D&D.

The GLOG is very great for free and CC-BY-SA gaming, though it's mostly OSR. There are endless hacks which reference other hacks. It's wonderful. There's also a significant overlap between the GLOG and the *DREAM scene.

Ayslyn It's ALSO quite possible that the person in question ASSUMED an incorrect motive for their treatment.

Whatever the motive, the actual treatment is what's most important.

Kainguru I'm not sure I understand what your solution to bigotry in the hobby should be. Are you saying to welcome them into your group?

Greatwyrm

Kainguru

It is MORE probable that papa Hasbro has seen an opportunity to capitalise on real world issues and insert itself into the debate simply to raise it's own profile.

I kinda have a hard time believing anybody up the food chain at Hasbro is paying attention to any of this. If this was Magic, maybe. And that's a long maybe. D&D is basically a footnote on Hasbro's financial statements. Until they get Twitter brigaded at the corporate level or somehow Legal has to get involved, I doubt they'll pay much attention.

Kainguru

Greatwyrm The accusations of bad conduct also involves MtG side of WoTC - that's before we even get into their recent non-personing of one of it's artists.

Ayslyn

Kainguru In WoTC's case - jump on the twitter band wagon for views while treating employed minorities like shit.

Presuming it really happened the way that was reported.... There is a saying that I am inordinately fond of, "There are three sides to every story"

Kainguru

Ayslyn WoTC has issued a formal apology to the first employee that raised the issue - so we can assume that that happened. The MtG artist they've non-personed produced a copy of the letter where WoTC cites it's reasons for removing her and her work (she produced a parody MtG card, noted it was a parody and a piece of artistic self-expression ... WoTC then went full the 'Mary Whitehouse' on her)

The whole disclaimer thing appeared to come after a minor storm of criticism on twitter - so looks like a knee jerk response to that. Afterwards the minority former employees went public with their complaints - again, one complaint has definitely been upheld by WoTC itself.

So the optics are do the easy thing. It's like so many things, a product can be branded as supporting any abstract cause but that means very little if, in creating that product, very real harm is done. It's the usual corporate obfuscation eg: put a green planet logo on your sneakers and a vegan friendly tag while manufacturing said sneakers in a 3rd world country (known for it's violations of humans rights) sweatshop using child labour while offsetting the company CO2 emissions by the very fact of manufacturing off shore (frequently in countries with lax pollution laws).

The problem with companies like WoTC isn't the actual product, it's the process - but they want concentrate on the imagined sins of their products because that is more publicly obvious and, again, easier. The great irony of times is that the very people that most of these abstract causes are critical of are the very people that profit from it - so all those supposed gains just become so much window dressing in the metaphorical store front designed to siphon money into the same pockets they always have.

It's a zero sum game where nothing substantial actual changes. Too often (and I'm showing my age here) proper change is deflected as 'small gains over time will win the race'. Yet, what I have seen happen is no change over time just a convenient illusion. I'm not naive, any company is about making profit, and that profit generates wealth etc etc but I care less about token disclaimers and more about, maybe, being fairer to the people that actually produce the product that creates that profit.

The people complaining are consumers and they are already privileged to be in the position to consume, just like people with access to the internet are already privileged to have that access. In the big picture the consumers are okie - they're not really being directly hurt by anything and, if they don't like it, they can simply not consume it (the exception being products that are mis-sold or products that are known, by the company, to be faulty eg: certain cars produced in the 1970's). The people tangibly impacted by any company are the people that work for it, either directly or indirectly - and that is where real change has to occur before any medal wearing chest thumping can be justified or congratulated.

Plus we've have got to move beyond token gestures and diversity hires - this stuff just excuses otherwise bad behaviour. We have to move towards a situation were elements of anyone's character that are immutable are irrelevant as the opportunities are equal and respect, and fair treatment, universal.

TL;DR The optics, over many months (nay, years) is that WoTC is a bad faith operator. These are not the first complaints about WoTC's actual conduct (they tried, for a very long time, to bury a certain issue involving a total lack of due diligence with their MtG organised play and the prior criminal misdemeanours of some of their accredited judges)

Ayslyn

Kainguru WoTC has issued a formal apology to the first employee that raised the issue - so we can assume that that happened.

Given that we've seen any number of cases where formal apologies are given for times where someone didn't do anything wrong, I would argue that it doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that it hadn't happened that way, just that I am always skeptical of the account given by the aggrieved party. They have a vested interest in making things look as bad as possible. It's quite possible that WotC is a god awful employer. It's possible that they are (pick your favourite)-ists. It's ALSO quite possible that the person in question ASSUMED an incorrect motive for their treatment. Given the climate, even IF they were innocent, WotC would be much better off (optics wise) by issuing an apology.

Kainguru

Ayslyn absolutely. To be clear I am NOT a fan of the casual -ist and -phobe accusers. More often than not its a case of having a different opinion about something totally unrelated. Eg: I am not a fan of the Disney SW sequel trilogy, I am certainly no -ist or -phobe, I just don't like, I stress in my opinion, bad story telling - no matter how many flashy effects it has (and, yes, I enjoy narratives that have a strong internal consistency: canon if you will*).

Again, though, even without the accusations of bad conduct I still feel that the disclaimer is cynical in the sense that its lazy and irrelevant. Basically it is such a marginal side issue as to not be worth mentioning. Society reads many books that are dated and understands that they are products their time without having to have that explained.

As I previously said, I also think its conceited to think that such a niche hobby has that much reach or impact. WE might think it does but then that is the echo chamber we willingly inhabit because it is so niche - and, unlike many echo chambers we are aware of it being such and so engage with the world outside its confines easily (for the most part, there are exceptions I'm sure but Jackers tend to be more worldly than most).

All too often we all seem to be on a 'culture war' with each other. A set of hobbies and interests that once bought the disparate and socially awkward together is being split apart as it gets crucified by outside actors. Yes, it's niche and yes, not to everyone's taste ... that's why its so niche ... and why anyone was welcome. Now, unless we actively force everyone to consume it, we're not good enough.

We've gone from finally standing up for ourselves after decades of being chucked into lockers at high school, and worse, to ripping ourselves apart and wallowing in some sort of guilt for our imagined sins.

Yes, as in real life there are actual -ists and -phobes in the hobby. That's the broader brush strokes of society and will only be solved by those broader brush strokes. The most damaging ethos of late? - these bad faith actors would rather we expell into the ether those they label toxic rather than show compassion and help them to be better people. No one is born wanting to live in their mums basement and smelling of cheethos and no soap - yet the solution is rapidly becoming the default of pushing them even further into the shadows so the popular kids (those ordained by the mob as exemplars) can shine. This is not a progress this is 1984 and Brave New World.

🙂

if the canon gets so wound up in itself that they can't tell new stories then that tale has come to its natural end.

bigtroll

Kainguru I still say sharp edged dice roll more true. Ban the rounded-edged non-believers!

Kainguru

bigtroll what about a fancy bevelled edge?

ProbieTim

bigtroll Ban the rounded-edged non-believers!

GAMESCIENCE DICE OR DEATH!

Er... actually, Gamescience dice are so sharp-edged, I'm surprised they haven't caused death yet...

EricfromNJ

My dice started sharp but got round over the years.

ProbieTim

EricfromNJ My dice started sharp but got round over the years.

Sounds a lot like my IQ...

ba-dum psh

Kainguru

EricfromNJ The cure is - METAL DICE!!!!!!

EricfromNJ

Kainguru I got me a pair of Blacksmith Craft Dice which are metal for Father’s Day! However I am not allowed to roll them on the dining room table unless there is some sort of padding.

Kainguru

No, I'm saying stop demonising everything and everyone - and be careful before declaring someone a bigot. Don't confuse a difference of opinion with bigotry - which is more often the case. You don't have to invite people you don't agree with into your group BUT you don't have the right to deny them the pursuit of the same hobby. Instead of driving them away like Frankenstein's Monster you should set the example and strive to be a better person by that example - engage to persuade rather than condemn. I don't believe in moral absolutism, so anyone who sets themselves up as the arbiter of right and wrong is, IMO, problematic in itself.

As I note, no one is born a bigot ... but if you refuse to hear what they have to say you send them into deeper, darker echo chambers of their own where those beliefs are reinforced.

Again, the irony of our times: we, as a society, spend millions each year on counsellors, life coaches, motivational speakers, psychiatrists, social workers, psychologists etc etc - all of which are underpinned by the assumption that people can change, improve, and be better. Yet we'll happily throw some people to dogs as incorrigibles which is basically at odds with the former assumption.

For personal reasons there is a class of criminal misdemeanour I have low tolerance for BUT I also know that those people are often products of a poor situation themselves not some innately maladjusted manifestation made flesh.

Do you really think that TTRPG's, as a hobby, have been a breeding ground for bigotry? That Stormfront shifts thru TTRPG shops and message boards for hoards of willing new recruits? That Gygax and Arneson were closet bigots writing a game to warp the minds of the youth towards such belief systems (when they weren't prepping us for entry into the Ancient and Great Cabbalistic Order of Goat Fetishists)?

You want to know where to start? start by preventing the radicalisation of people through persistent attack and judgement and guilt. Look to history: there was reason WW2 happened and it had a lot to do with the aftermath of WW1. The consequence of the War to End All Wars, in the conditions of it's armistice, lead to the circumstances that created the monster that underpinned WW2.

Before calling someone a bigot find out their story, because they might be saying the same thing about you - and they might be right as well. No one is all good or all bad and no one sits around thinking 'I wanna be evil' ... it's rarely deliberate, it's normally just ignorance and ignorance is never defeated by obstinance.

EDIT:

The ultimate irony is the happy consumption, and applauding, of redemption arcs in our fiction. A tendency not favoured or believed IRL

eg:
Boromir 'Gimmie that Ring' of Gondor
Angel and Spike 'centuries of wanton cruelty and bloodshed but it's okie I got a soul now' in Buffy
Anakin 'Darth (kill the younglings) Vader' Skywalker
Ben 'Kylo (kill everyone I don't like) Ren' Solo
Thomas 'my first act in The Land was one that corrupted me ever after and tainted everything I tried to do to atone' Covenant
Severus 'I loved your mother' Snape
Bucky 'The Winter Solider' Barnes
Selina 'Catwoman' Kyle
The list is endless

Ayslyn

Kainguru To continue, a great start is not assuming that just because your opposition disagrees with the scope of a problem, or your solution, doesn't mean that they don't care about the problem.

Provinto

Kainguru Do you really think that TTRPG's, as a hobby, have been a breeding ground for bigotry? That Stormfront shifts thru TTRPG shops and message boards for hoards of willing new recruits? That Gygax and Arneson were closet bigots writing a game to warp the minds of the youth towards such belief systems (when they weren't prepping us for entry into the Ancient and Great Cabbalistic Order of Goat Fetishists)?

No, and I don't believe anyone has said so......

If we're going to bring up WWII, then we should mention what else went into the rise of the Third Reich. Namely, constant appeasement of fascists, both within Germany and internationally. Even Hitler himself says that the thing that would have stopped the Nazi Party was if people had physically broken up their meetings.

Kainguru The ultimate irony is the happy consumption, and applauding, of redemption arcs in our fiction. A tendency not favoured or believed IRL

That's true and a great point. A good example is Albert Parsons who fought in the civil war on the side of the Confederacy but changed his mind at a pivotal point in his life and was married to Lucy Parsons at the time of his execution.

Kainguru

Ayslyn Aye, context is king.

We should also listen to each other more because the current zietgiest of non-personing means running the risk of paving the road to Hell with good intentions. Again, I'm jaded and cynical at this juncture of my life - I just don't feel that the hobby beating itself up, constantly, is going to help at all. It has only just managed to rehabilitate itself from the accusations of witchcraft and Satanism ... which anyone involved with the hobby knows were tosh. There are definitively Satanists and witches that play DnD, just like there are Satanists and witches that drive cars, play monopoly and dabble in goat husbandry. They don't play DnD because they are Satanists and witches, nor do they become Satanists and witches because they play DnD. Being a Satanist or a witch is a separate issue from playing DnD.

Which comes to my point about the conceit of the hobby to think it has that much influence or bears some burden of guilt. Though in it's, alleged, treatment of actual people in real life, it may very well need to account for itself - but there are processes and mechanism outside of the hobby to do exactly that (employment law etc). It is, however, not my responsibility (or burden of guilt) as a consumer for these alleged bad practices - again. if proven, I can vote with my wallet. Why would I feel compelled to do that? - not because of some disclaimer in small text inserted into a legacy product but because my engagement with the real world and larger society means that I am aware that such treatment of actual people should not be condoned. Note we are talking about a corporate body rather than individuals within that corporate body - many of whom may very well be decent, fair minded individuals: Group Think is terrible thing and all too common in corporate structures.

The other very real fact is that the hobby, by it's very nature as a 'hobby', means that no one in the position of being a consumer is really 'wanting'. It;s niche because it's a luxury, a luxury many people have neither the time or the resources to pursue. There is the real problem . . . distribution of wealth: the marginalised are marginalised due to lack of opportunity, resources, education etc etc The Border Strokes of Social Inequality

So, yeah, the hobby can sit there and print it's disclaimers and decry the inequality of it's consumer base: but I'll bet my collection of out of print RPG's there's not one underprivilaged person that is upset that they don't play DnD when their real world problems are so much worse and so much more tangible. Which leads to a further irony of our age, the very medium we are currently debating on: all those 1' and 0's zipping thru those copper and fibre optic cables called the internet. Access to the internet means that even on a bad day we are still not as badly off as a significant percentage of the population of the world right now.

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